Диснеевские принцессы (ELIMINATION BASED ON COMMENTS!!) Feminist Дисней Prince Countdown! Which Prince is the LEAST feminist? TIEBREAKER!

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34 fans picked:
John Smith
   65%
Аладдин
   35%
 princesslullaby posted Больше года
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24 comments

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maryksand picked John Smith:
This is the only one I'm going to vote. Not because I suddenly embraced the concepts of feminism which I find to be incredibly problematic in the first place, but because John Smith (along with Naveen) is the definition of sexist. Let me start by stating why I don't pick Aladdin. Because yes, Aladdin lied to Jasmine and yes, he did a handful of objectively unadmirable things - which were NEVER, by any means or in any way, shape or form justified by the movie or condoned. Even Genie continuously pointed at the destructive nature of Aladdin's decisions encouraging him to tell Jasmine the truth. Aladdin got to go on emotional journey only to realize he cannot pretend to be someone else in order to make people - as well as Jasmine - love and value him. The movie directly addressed his mistakes without praising or worshipping him for the wrong choices and him working through them was the essential part of the story.

But Smith? He comes to other people's land in order to invade it and "claim it and tame it", ready and willing to kill any of those people if they refuse to give it away and rightly decide to fight for it. He carries his gun everywhere with him which is apparently some sort of weird fetish he had in order to highlight his superiority. Then he sees a gorgeous young Native American woman and, as someone who generally had the tendency to kill people of her race because he perceived them as "savages", instantly and instictively points a loaded gun at her, but the next second he lowers his weapon solely because he is smitten with her gorgeous looks, it being the ONLY reason why he didn't bash her brains out there and then. A gorgeous young woman then sings him a song about the voices of the mountains and the colors of the wind while he is way too busy examining her looks rather than actually paying attention to what she says and even when he does, it's comes off as the mere attempt to leave the right impression on her (and the only reason why he is even listening to her singing in the first place instead of standing next to her cold dead body is the fact that he found her pretty. Honestly, I could stop here without even trying to continue because there is NO way Aladdin and any of his outlooks or actions could outbeat this kind of sexism) and he supposedly changes his entire mentality an attitude over second as the tree talks to him... ok. Now, to move on a little from talking about Smith's personality, lets look at the kind of role the movie gives to him. Ultimately, the premise and concept of the movie was Pocahontas' journey of self discovery and further on her ability to deliver and address the right message and her idea of life, respect, communication and peace through her wisdom and courage. Unfortunately, the general focus of the movie ends up being changed from Pocahontas to Smith's male saviour complex and people he intended to kill and robb off their land and their homes - and the only reason why he DID NOT do it is, again, Pocahontas' gorgeousness - give him praises in the end for saving their leader, who would NOT have needed any saving in the first place had Smith and Ratcliffe not come to their land. What Smith did was a honorable act but by no means heroic - he merely fixed his own mess. And why? Oh, because Pocahontas was hot!
posted Больше года.
last edited Больше года
 
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dimitri_is_hot picked John Smith:
Wowww I agree.
posted Больше года.
 
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Swanpride picked Аладдин:
But John Smith never does anything particular anti-feminist. Yeah, he things that savages are beneath him, but gender doesn't really play a role in it. And he spends a lot of time hearing out Pocahontas and her opinion and then he follows the suggestions of Grandma Willow.
Aladdin on the other hand doesn't really hear out what Jasmine has to say at all, neither does he trust in her opinions.
posted Больше года.
 
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princesslullaby picked Аладдин:
Maryksand--- 'concepts of feminism' --- WHAT concepts? There all sorts of different interpretations of feminism but at its core it's about equal rights of women to men and I don't know how anyone could be against that.
Again, SwanPride, I think it's more about her class than her race.
posted Больше года.
last edited Больше года
 
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Swanpride picked Аладдин:
@PL Perhaps, but even as he thinks that Jasmine is just a girl from the street, he doesn't really pay attention to what she says...to be fair, she doesn't really pay attention to him either.
posted Больше года.
 
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maryksand picked John Smith:
I never said I'm against the gender equality, however, the common interpretation of feminism and it's ideology coming from people claiming to be feminists does bother me in certain ways. Anyway, my personal approach to ideologies isn't the point now.

Aladdin might not stare at Jasmine's hottness with eyes wide opened like Smith, however, nor does he ever show any signs of her appearance being the driving force of his character development. Even when Genie suggests that she must be pretty Aladdin instantly corrects him and says that she is beautiful that has a whole new meaning to it. Aladdin didn't just fall in love with Jasmine the gorgeous stranger woman, he fell in love with Jasmine the person which wasn't the case with Smith because while both couples technically start out as love at first sight, it's Aladdin whose journey is NOT defined by Jasmine and her beauty along but his individual struggles and insecurities whereas in Smith's case he a) would have killed Pocahontas had she not been pretty b) would have never changed his attitude towards native Americans had she not sang him a song about colors of the wind which he only listened BECAUSE he wanted to hit on her.
posted Больше года.
 
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Swanpride picked Аладдин:
Yes, but John Smith actually listens to what Pocahontas has to say, while Aladdin doesn't. Jasmine says she doesn't want to be treated like a trophy, but that's exactly what Aladdin does more than once.
posted Больше года.
 
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maryksand picked John Smith:
^ Never perceived it that way. Aladdin gets an actual growth by the end and the moment when he is willing to lose everything on behalf of his friend and in order to keep his promise to Genie and set him free - even at the cost of losing the only chance to be with Jasmine - says that she is not some kind of prize he wants to win, he just wants people he loves to be happy. Sure, as any guy, he wants to "get the girl" but he doesn't force her into being with him nor does he get his development SOLELY because of being smitten with her gorgeous looks. Smith's development on the other hand was directly linked to Pocahontas' appearances.
posted Больше года.
 
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Swanpride picked Аладдин:
But there is never said that it is only her appearance. To me it looks like John Smith is impressed by what she has to teach, too. Yes, he first notices her because of her looks, but that is true for Aladdin, too.
posted Больше года.
 
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princesslullaby picked Аладдин:
Yep. Both Aladdin and John Smith noticed the other woman for their looks, in this case, John has a gun, and could do more serious damage, but he shouldn't be held more accountable.
I'm not sure Aladdin not valuing Jasmine's opinion has anything to do with her being a girl, I think it has to do with Aladdin being entirely self-absorbed. I stick up for Aladdin (yes, shoot me now) because when he describes things he loves about Jasmine, he calls her 'smart' and 'funny' first, BEFORE being prompted by the Genie to say she's beautiful. Her looks aren't what initially come to mind. Also, Jasmine isn't as easy a person to approach and fall for as say, Rapunzel, or Cinderella. Jasmine is hot-headed, smarmy, and constantly calls him out on his shit, but he loves her for being so abrasive.
The other thing I like about Aladdin is in the scene where Jasmine is seducing Jafar, we don't see him /also/ get distracted and start drooling all over her acting so sexy.
He does initially treat Jasmine as a prize, though, and /agrees/ with her when she even tricks him by saying she is one, although I think he says it more because he thinks that's what he supposed to say, not that that's what he actually thinks. I have serious issues with Aladdin, serious, serious issues but I don't think gender equality is one of them.
But on the other hand, John Smith really takes into account and listens to what Pocahontas says and never questions or doubts her, when she is talking about 'Colors if the Wind'. And when he goes back to camp, he continually brings up what she says to defend the Native Americans, never once mentioning Pocahontas' gender, just saying he met one of them and this NA was a credible source. (although he might have not been bringing up her gender just because that could get him into shit)
If you want to guilt Smith as being the heroic savior of the movie that they just place in, you especially need to do that to Aladdin as well. I guess the difference is is that Aladdin was meant to be the savior, and Smith isn't. But I never thought that he stole the spotlight, my overall impression at the end of the movie is that Pocahontas still saved the day.

maryksand-- I'm not sure I agree with the thought that Smith only listened to what Pocahontas had to say because he wanted to hit on her. I think he genuinely was curious, it's in his nature. And Aladdin saying Jasmine was beautiful didn't bring a 'whole new meaning' to it , he follows it up with 'she's got this hair that just-- and these eyes, wow!' or whatever he says.
Like I said, this is hard.
posted Больше года.
last edited Больше года
 
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BelleAnastasia picked Аладдин:
I think that even though John Smith may have appeared more anti-feminist than Aladdin in the beginning of the movie, by the end of the movie he was likely to have gone through a bigger change, and embrace the ideas of feminism more than Aladdin.
I guess it's a bit late to share that now, but my reasons to pick John Smith over Aladdin now apply exactly to why do I believe Shang deserved to be a lot higher. True, in the beginning of the movie he wasn't feminist at all. He believed men and women have their own gender related duties and obligations. However, we can see the growth in him as the movie progresses, and I strongly believe that in a post-movie scenario he's one of the most feminist friendly princes.
posted Больше года.
 
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Swanpride picked Аладдин:
Since John Smith never says anything about gender, it's difficult to judge...the thing with his character is: I can't stand him. But I can't stand him, because he is too perfect. He should be an antifeminist racist throwback to be realistic, but even his racism is toned down as much as possible. So when my main problem with his is his perfectionism, I can hardly say that he isn't feminist enough.
posted Больше года.
 
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maryksand picked John Smith:
I guess the difference is is that Aladdin was meant to be the savior, and Smith isn't. - but that is the entire point though. Smith was meant to be a misguided prejudiced individual eventually fixed and educated by a more wise and spiritual Pocahontas, however, it ended up with him eventually obtaining the traditional role of a male saviour, not to mention getting an immense amount of praise from the people whose land he initially intended to invade and the ONLY reason why he didn't was Pocahontas' gorgeous looks. And no, I don't buy into him supposedly actually changing his mentality because he talked to a tree and because Pocahontas introduced him to her worldview. Even when Pocahontas sang him a song he still attempted to shoot a bear and would have if she hadn't not interrupted him. While I can see why he would start vieweing nature and other people that had a different culture in a less prejudiced or superficial way, the only reason why he ends up doing so IS his attempt to hit on Pocahontas because he found her pretty. Had she not been pretty he would have shot her to death. Her appearance was what got him drawn to her in the first place and what set all the events of the story as well as his development in motion whereas it was not the case with Aladdin. Sure, he protected Jasmine like any other loving person would and yes, he did help her out on the market but not because she was a woman but because it was merely what Aladdin was about in general since he once gave his only piece of bread to starving kids hence proving his caring nature. Aladdin was set to be a hero but he was not set to be a saviour. Smith on the other hand was designed to be a hero but ended up being a stereotypical male saviour whose journey was set in motion by the gorgeousness of his female love interest.
posted Больше года.
 
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princesslullaby picked Аладдин:
Did you like, miss the part in the movie where Aladdin goes 'wowwwwwwwwwwwww' when he first sees Jasmine? And is totally smitten by her beauty and only takes her back to his place b/c he thinks she's hot?
posted Больше года.
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maryksand picked John Smith:
No, because that was a natural reaction of a man who sees a pretty girl. It was not what defined his journey in the movie nor was it the reason why he helped her out when she was about to lose her hand. Pretty sure had she been a child or someone not particulary attractive he would have done exactly the same because the movie ALREADY established him as the care taker when he gave his last food to those kids.
posted Больше года.
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opalrose picked John Smith:
i agree with maryksand
posted Больше года.
 
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rhythmicmagic picked John Smith:
I agree with a lot of what BA said, and I do think John might have gone through the bigger change. I'll be fine with either leaving.
I think Aladdin is a little more feminist because when Jasmine pointed out he was treating her like a prize and like all the other men had, he agreed and said, "You're right." He apologized and saw there was something wrong with it. John did come to listen to Pocahontas and allow himself to change his views because of it though, so he has something going for him too. I guess it all depends on perspective.
posted Больше года.
 
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princesslullaby picked Аладдин:
"You're right...you're not just some prize to be won" followed by a dramatic fall onto the carpet in an attempt to trick Jasmine into being impressed by the carpet. I thought that was all an act. Actually, it was, wasn't it? Even after he heard her 'prize to be won' statement...yeah I'm gonna have to vote against Al.
posted Больше года.
 
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princesslullaby picked Аладдин:
I honestly don't know what to do about this poll. it's 3 comments for Al vs. 4 comments for John, but the poll has Aladdin losing by a slight amount--- it was 50/50 until I voted.
posted Больше года.
 
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maryksand picked John Smith:
But Aladdin *DID* apologize for his actions even though he was still naturally drawn to Jasmine and tried to impress her but impressing her WASN'T the driving force of his character development as opposed to Smith whose entire journey was set in motion solely due to him being stunned by Pocahontas' gorgeous looks. Pocahontas not being a pretty young thing would have resulted in Smith shooting her right on the spot.
posted Больше года.
 
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DsnyPrincess picked John Smith:
I want Aladdin to go next!
posted Больше года.
 
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rhythmicmagic picked John Smith:
princesslullaby- I think you're reading too much into Aladdin using the carpet. I really don't think he had this grand plan to trap Jasmine into coming with him, if only because it is in his nature to go with things as they happen.
I also think maryksand is making too big a deal out of John Smith. Just because his initial act not to be violent was because she was beautiful, I don't think that means his entire transformation of view should be thrown out the window. He did genuinely change his view, at least in my eyes. I do not think one act made based on the looks of a woman should mean that it is invalid that he would learn from her.
posted Больше года.
 
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SailorM91 picked John Smith:
^Agree
posted Больше года.
 
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princesslullaby picked Аладдин:
No, I definitely think the whole stepping off the balcony thing was pre meditated, not necessarily from before he went to saw her but he thought it up then, because he even quoted her.
posted Больше года.