Been in this debate a few times I don't think I have the energy to do it again. Maybe I'll dig up the links tomorrow. But to be really honest next to Swan Queen vs Captain Swan this is the debate I'm most tired of.
@anaswill If I'm not mistaken isn't he the one who rang her doorbell and without a word planted one on her? She didn't force him to have sex with her he did it willingly and I doubt she would have made him continue if he decided mid-sex that he didn't want it. In fact when he had his nightmare and got up to go find his heart (while she did try to convince him to stay in bed) she ended up letting him leave. Yes he did it to feel something because she had his heart but he could have done so with literally anyone--he could have did the do with Ruby to try to feel something. He chose to do it with Regina. She wasn't talking into his heart and telling him to have sex with her.
I've stated my piece again. Hope you don't mind. If this gets too heated I'm probably gonna stop commenting because I don't really want to lowkey fight with anyone.
I wasn't talking about their relationship in Storybrooke, I meant what happened in the Enchanted Forest. She kissed him and then ordered he be taken to her bed chambers. It's only natural to assume what her next move will be.
I took a look at the link you gave, and that actually did make me pause and reconsider. I'd never seen those tweets from the writers before, and they do make it sound like she may not have raped him. I've also never read the graphic novel, I should take a look at that. I just feel like someone who is not above killing entire villages of people would probably also not be above raping someone.
I'm as much a Regina fan as anyone else, but y'all tripping if you say Regina didn't rape poor Graham. It's the one thing in Regina's redemption arc that they still need to address.
"he could have done so with literally anyone--he could have did the do with Ruby to try to feel something. He chose to do it with Regina. She wasn't talking into his heart and telling him to have sex with her."
I don't even know how to respond to this.
I think the fact that she kissed him after she took his heart and he was taken to her bedroom chamber made it painfully obvious. Plus the obvious sexual attraction she had for him added to that. Although you could argue that she was a very flirtatious person, but either way, I do believe she raped him. She's still my second favorite fictional after Jack Frost from Rise of The Guardians, but she did rape him. I try to stay away from this argument for obvious reasons, but I don't deny she raped him just like how I don't deny that Zelena raped Robin (Though in a much different and deceptive way than Regina did). But I still ADORE both Regina and Zelena. But out of all the evil things Regina has done (Murdering villages, including children) along with this and all of the good things she's done to make-up for her actions, I really think at this point it should be water under the bridge.
Lol then don't respond at all hatelarexene that's more than cool with me. This is how many times now that you've thrown shade at me? I'm tired of it honestly. I'm not in the mood for unnecessary snark so the conversation ends here.
For real I don't even do anything to you and yet it always seems like you have something salty to say?
@anas I'll respond to you after work because my lunch break is almost over.
I really don't wanna fight with the dude but this is like the 5th time he's done this to me just because we disagree. And it this point I'm over it. I'm totally okay with disagreement anaswill and I are fine. It when a person comes at me with attitude (especially if I didn't do anything to start it) that gets to me. :/
If he stops coming at me sideways I'll stop too.
@anaswill Got it. I feel like it was definitely less clear back in the enchanted forest. And I can totally see why you and others see it as the natural next step. I will say that the kiss was harassment plan and simple but that itself wasn't rape. A&E said nothing happened after that; they're the authors so I think that they have the final say. And if the authors say she didn't the for me it's true. Their story, their rules, sort of like Rowling saying that Dumbledore is gay after the last book came out. On top of that; they pretty much acknowledged that Zelena raped Robin so I don't see why they would try to lie and cover one but not the other. Hope that makes sense. I can post a pic from the novel if you'd like.
But yeah I totally understand how you'd come to that conclusion. I personally feel like there's a line she draws. Sort of like how she seems to have a soft spot for children's. I feel like because of her own past (being forced to marry a man so much older than she) she may have a boundary she won't cross.
@zanhar1 I wouldn't exactly say that Regina as The Evil Queen had a soft spot for children. I mean, she had sent other children into The Blind Witch's (A child-eating witch) house to get her poison apple before Hansel and Gretel got it for her, after they rejected her offer to live with her she left them in the woods to fend for themselves while she had their father, had entire villages murdered (Which I'm sure included children), was willing to have Emma killed when she was just a baby, in episode 3x02 "Lost Girl" she nearly choked a little girl to death to show Snow what she'll do if she doesn't give up the throne to her, and made Emma take the Storybrooke versions of Hansel and Gretel across the town line (Likely in order to get rid of Emma for good) and because in season 1 bad things happened to those who tried to leave. I wouldn't go so far as to say that she had a soft spot for children as The Evil Queen aside from Henry and Owen. True, she definitely has a soft spot for them now, but I wouldn't say she had them as The Evil Queen.
Also, it was shown in season 2 in the early days of Storybrooke that she was still able to control Graham's heart. Plus, you could argue that her making the people do what she wanted, including Graham being her boyfriend to have sex with whenever she wanted, was rape in a sense. No one on the show exactly said Zelena outright raped Robin, just that she killed Marian and "Deceived Robin in the most vile way imaginable." It's basically saying rape, kind of like Regina kissing Graham with his heart out and having him brought to her bedroom chamber instead of a dungeon or something. But I really am not going to debate this very much because at this point, with all the horrible things Regina has done and all the good things she's done to make up for everything she's done but still feels bad about everything evil she's ever done, I think it should just be considered water under the bridge. I mean, I'm completely against gender roles and bull crap double standards like how people say that a man getting raped is no big deal, but even I have forgotten about this whole thing with Graham until someone brings it up.
As for this thing with hatelarxene, I do agree with you that he was unnecessarily rude. I have told him a few times before in the past (Not recently, though) that he needs to be more careful about what he says, especially on the internet. I mean, I throw shade to people in real life but I say it in a way that they know I'm just joking around. But it's harder to do that on the internet when no one can understand the tone of voice I'm using. He's definitely opinionated and though I know him better than that, I do see how people think he has a holier than thou attitude.
@hatelarxene I think you should apologize for not expressing your disagreement with zanhar1 in a more respectful way. And again, you're a good friend of mine (One of my closest on Fanpop) but you need to learn to be more respectful with the comments you make. I hate to sound like Regina (Actually, I'm lying, I LOVE to sound like Regina) when she was lecturing Zelena in season 5, but I used to be A LOT like you. During the first two or three years I was on Fanpop I was very rude and appeared to others to have a holier than thou attitude, despite still having friends. But then something happened, some of the people who I couldn't stand (pretty_angel92 and fhghu for example) became some of my closest friends because I tried to be more respectful. I'm still brutally honest, but I try not to seem like I'm throwing shade at someone unless they do it to me first.
I think she always did but she just had a warped way of showing it sort of like how she was with Henry in the beginning; she loved him but still ended up hurting him. I think she liked Hansel and Gretel and that's why she offered them a place in her castle and trusted them with her task. But again it was an odd and harmful way of showing her affection. Espically when she was rejected; she never handled that's well.
With Emma I think it was a different story because Emma could directly ruin her work. Her actions in regards to Emma were still awful but I don't think that they disprove a soft spot for children.
Correct me if I'm wrong (because I may have the wrong episode in mind, she's choked out so many people lol) but was that girl a teen? Still a horrible thing to do though.
As for what was shown of Graham in season 2; yes she was shown to control his heart but she only used it to make him do things like chase Owen. We never saw her with his heart during or before their sex. I've been under the impression that the heart needed to be on hand during the commanding. Not to mention he could have broken up with her but he didn't want to until Emma came and her realized he didn't love Regina. I don't think she used his heart to make him stay with her. If she did wouldn't she have done that instead of killing him? And Adam specifically stated that, that was NOT what she used it for. With Zelena I feel like it was much more clear cut and neither Adam nor Eddy confirmed that she didn't rape him as they did with Regina. That's my main point; the creators said Regina did not rape Graham. It's their story don't they get the final say in what happened and what didn't?
I feel like this debate is an ancient relic of a time when people would demonize Regina's every move and that they were just making up shit to hate on her for, espically since we were given confirmation that she didn't rape the dude. Robin on the other hand was clearly a victim and that should be addressed.
The holier than thou attitude is the one that really just gets under my skin because I feel like there's no getting through. I feel as though I try to understand the other point of view but when I state mine it's no being listened to. Like there's not even an attempt and that's why I just didn't want to get into it again. But the dude isn't here so I'm not gonna talk shit.
YES DUH! Why this even a debate! Anyone who voted no must really be delusional or they are flat out denying she raped him. Adam and Eddie are either delusional themselves or they know she raped Graham and flat out are trying to gaslight their audience. Infact just watch this video.
link
The Enchanted Forest scene implies this so heavily, there'd need to be a later scene explicitly showing that all they did in her bedroom was talk. It was just so clear that rape was implied, and that this was as close as they could get to confirming/showing it due to ratings and OUAT being a family show.
Their relationship in Storybrooke is also dubious, at the least, since Regina was the one planting everyone's cursed memories/thoughts/emotions in their heads, including any attraction Graham thought he felt towards Regina. He was sleeping with her by the end of the first day - the flashback in season 2 showed her waking up next to him on the second morning. A bit fast to claim he could have developed some kind of attraction to her naturally, rather than that being her set-up.
link
I've stated my piece again. Hope you don't mind. If this gets too heated I'm probably gonna stop commenting because I don't really want to lowkey fight with anyone.
I took a look at the link you gave, and that actually did make me pause and reconsider. I'd never seen those tweets from the writers before, and they do make it sound like she may not have raped him. I've also never read the graphic novel, I should take a look at that. I just feel like someone who is not above killing entire villages of people would probably also not be above raping someone.
The evidence is very much there: link
"he could have done so with literally anyone--he could have did the do with Ruby to try to feel something. He chose to do it with Regina. She wasn't talking into his heart and telling him to have sex with her."
I don't even know how to respond to this.
For real I don't even do anything to you and yet it always seems like you have something salty to say?
@anas I'll respond to you after work because my lunch break is almost over.
link
If he stops coming at me sideways I'll stop too.
@anaswill Got it. I feel like it was definitely less clear back in the enchanted forest. And I can totally see why you and others see it as the natural next step. I will say that the kiss was harassment plan and simple but that itself wasn't rape. A&E said nothing happened after that; they're the authors so I think that they have the final say. And if the authors say she didn't the for me it's true. Their story, their rules, sort of like Rowling saying that Dumbledore is gay after the last book came out. On top of that; they pretty much acknowledged that Zelena raped Robin so I don't see why they would try to lie and cover one but not the other. Hope that makes sense. I can post a pic from the novel if you'd like.
But yeah I totally understand how you'd come to that conclusion. I personally feel like there's a line she draws. Sort of like how she seems to have a soft spot for children's. I feel like because of her own past (being forced to marry a man so much older than she) she may have a boundary she won't cross.
Also, it was shown in season 2 in the early days of Storybrooke that she was still able to control Graham's heart. Plus, you could argue that her making the people do what she wanted, including Graham being her boyfriend to have sex with whenever she wanted, was rape in a sense. No one on the show exactly said Zelena outright raped Robin, just that she killed Marian and "Deceived Robin in the most vile way imaginable." It's basically saying rape, kind of like Regina kissing Graham with his heart out and having him brought to her bedroom chamber instead of a dungeon or something. But I really am not going to debate this very much because at this point, with all the horrible things Regina has done and all the good things she's done to make up for everything she's done but still feels bad about everything evil she's ever done, I think it should just be considered water under the bridge. I mean, I'm completely against gender roles and bull crap double standards like how people say that a man getting raped is no big deal, but even I have forgotten about this whole thing with Graham until someone brings it up.
As for this thing with hatelarxene, I do agree with you that he was unnecessarily rude. I have told him a few times before in the past (Not recently, though) that he needs to be more careful about what he says, especially on the internet. I mean, I throw shade to people in real life but I say it in a way that they know I'm just joking around. But it's harder to do that on the internet when no one can understand the tone of voice I'm using. He's definitely opinionated and though I know him better than that, I do see how people think he has a holier than thou attitude.
@hatelarxene I think you should apologize for not expressing your disagreement with zanhar1 in a more respectful way. And again, you're a good friend of mine (One of my closest on Fanpop) but you need to learn to be more respectful with the comments you make. I hate to sound like Regina (Actually, I'm lying, I LOVE to sound like Regina) when she was lecturing Zelena in season 5, but I used to be A LOT like you. During the first two or three years I was on Fanpop I was very rude and appeared to others to have a holier than thou attitude, despite still having friends. But then something happened, some of the people who I couldn't stand (pretty_angel92 and fhghu for example) became some of my closest friends because I tried to be more respectful. I'm still brutally honest, but I try not to seem like I'm throwing shade at someone unless they do it to me first.
With Emma I think it was a different story because Emma could directly ruin her work. Her actions in regards to Emma were still awful but I don't think that they disprove a soft spot for children.
Correct me if I'm wrong (because I may have the wrong episode in mind, she's choked out so many people lol) but was that girl a teen? Still a horrible thing to do though.
As for what was shown of Graham in season 2; yes she was shown to control his heart but she only used it to make him do things like chase Owen. We never saw her with his heart during or before their sex. I've been under the impression that the heart needed to be on hand during the commanding. Not to mention he could have broken up with her but he didn't want to until Emma came and her realized he didn't love Regina. I don't think she used his heart to make him stay with her. If she did wouldn't she have done that instead of killing him? And Adam specifically stated that, that was NOT what she used it for. With Zelena I feel like it was much more clear cut and neither Adam nor Eddy confirmed that she didn't rape him as they did with Regina. That's my main point; the creators said Regina did not rape Graham. It's their story don't they get the final say in what happened and what didn't?
I feel like this debate is an ancient relic of a time when people would demonize Regina's every move and that they were just making up shit to hate on her for, espically since we were given confirmation that she didn't rape the dude. Robin on the other hand was clearly a victim and that should be addressed.
The holier than thou attitude is the one that really just gets under my skin because I feel like there's no getting through. I feel as though I try to understand the other point of view but when I state mine it's no being listened to. Like there's not even an attempt and that's why I just didn't want to get into it again. But the dude isn't here so I'm not gonna talk shit.
link
Their relationship in Storybrooke is also dubious, at the least, since Regina was the one planting everyone's cursed memories/thoughts/emotions in their heads, including any attraction Graham thought he felt towards Regina. He was sleeping with her by the end of the first day - the flashback in season 2 showed her waking up next to him on the second morning. A bit fast to claim he could have developed some kind of attraction to her naturally, rather than that being her set-up.
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