Дебаты Why Don't еще Liberal Jews Support Israel?

MajorDork74 posted on Sep 19, 2007 at 03:01AM
All right. The question is on the table: "Why is it that liberal Jews -- Hollywood Jews, Jewish people, liberals all over the country -- don't seem to join the fight for Israel?" There are many theories out there, but the simplest explanation, folks -- and it's going to sound simplistic, and oftentimes trust the simplistic because the simplistic is right on the money. Most liberals, whatever their faith, put their liberalism first. Liberalism is a more powerful religion than any other, to the committed liberal. In the world of liberalism, Israel is too powerful. Israel is using jets against these defenseless little backwards terrorists. That's not fair. Israel is richer. Israel is allied by the United States. This is just not right.

You cannot exclude from this the element of guilt, which pervades liberalism and perpetuates it. A liberal in the United States is really no different than a liberal in Europe or a liberal working at the United Nations. They have the same worldview. A liberal here was no different than a liberal in the Soviet Union. They all -- I don't care where you go, find a liberal in Congo, find a liberal in Kuala Lumpur, find a liberal in Tibet. (Find anybody in Tibet! You talk about a bunch of people getting their butts kicked and nobody cares about that because nobody's got the guts to go up against the Chinese, but I get sidetracked.) Find a liberal anywhere.

They all think we need to negotiate with terrorists, that we should have a Manhattan Project for terrorists and so forth, that we need to examine what it is we're doing to cause these people to become terrorists. Why do they hate us so? It's our fault. Well, not theirs. The liberals, of course, are the understanding and compassionate. It is the blockheads, the conservatives, others, they're the ones causing the problem. Conservatives and conservatism pose a much greater threat to liberals than terrorists do. Check their language against the terrorists versus their language against George W. Bush, or me, or any other prominent conservative public figure, and ask yourself for whom do they have the most criticism, and about whom do they speak in the harshest of terms?

It's not the terrorists. Liberals in this country want terrorists to have essentially constitutional rights, the Al-Qaeda Bill of Rights. Another story today in the stack, United Nations, amid all this going on with the Hezbos and the Israelis, the United Nations demanding that we close our secret prisons around the world. Well, if they're secret, how do those boneheads know that we have any? But number two, who the hell are they? A bunch of liberals at the United Nations. The human rights committee, conference, whatever they call themselves up there, and don't forget, this human rights club at the United Nations can have as one of its leaders somebody like Saddam Hussein, or a country like Iraq under Saddam Hussein.


It rotates. So it doesn't matter, Catholic, Jewish, Protestant. The only competition liberals really have with other religions, is the religion of Gaya, which is the earth, a tree, whatever. They're a little conflicted there. But they don't see Israel as anything with which they have in common in any way, religious or otherwise. They have no understanding of this enemy as they have no understanding of communism, and for the longest time they had no understanding of Nazism and actually they still don't have a real understanding of Nazism. They associate Nazism with conservatism when Nazism is one of those horrible things that you get on the left: communism, socialism, Nazism, fascism. Those are all on the left side of center, but liberals have found a way to put it on the right.

Of course, that's become popular conventional wisdom now, just like the Voting Rights Act. President Bush signed the Voting Rights Act extension, and liberals out there, "Oh, whoa, this is wonderful! This is wonderful. The Voting Rights Act. Wonderful, wonderful!" What they don't tell you is it was a bunch of Democrats that made the damn thing necessary. It was a bunch of Democrats came up with the poll tax. It was a bunch of Democrats came up with literacy tests. It was a bunch of Democrats and liberals that came up with the restrictions, but somehow that's been reversed in popular culture and conventional wisdom today. There are exceptions to this, however.

As I said, Alan Dershowitz writing today in the Washington Times (that would be the War-shington Times, for those of you in Rio Linda), he writes: "As a liberal Democrat, I listened carefully to the opposition voiced by many Democratic senators to the nomination of John Bolton as our chief representative to the UN. Mr. Bolton has been representing us in the UN since August. During the current Middle East crisis I've been able to listen for myself to what Mr. Bolton has been saying at the United Nations. On the basis of his performance, I have become a Bolton supporter. He speaks with moral clarity. He is extremely well prepared; he's extraordinarily articulate.

"He places the best face on American policy particularly in the Middle East during this crucial time. But Mr. Bolton is right to be skeptical and all the great US ambassadors to the United Nations from Stephenson to Goldberg to Moynihan to Kirkpatrick have shared that skepticism of the body. Bolton is absolutely justified in pushing for reform of the notoriously corrupt and inefficient bureaucrat structure at Turtle Bay. As he once said, 'If member countries want the UN to be respected, they should begin by making sure it's worthy of respect.'

"I have observed Mr. Bolton's performance with regard to Israel and its conflicts with Hezbollah and Hamas. On many other fronts, he's proved himself a staunch advocate of freedom and human rights, specifically in Sudan, North Korea, and Cuba. Some critics have argued that Mr. Bolton is better in his public role as advocate than his behind-the-scenes role as conciliator. But at this point in history the United States needs a public advocate who can further its case in the court of public opinion. No one does that better than John Bolton."

So, Dershowitz. You will not hear this from any liberal in Hollywood regardless of their religion, but Dershowitz does have an alliance and a deep love and a relationship with Israel and has written books about it. This is fabulous, by the way. I was happy to see this, happy to read it -- and I don't want to poison it or sadden it, but I do have just one small complaint. It would just be wonderful if Mr. Dershowitz would join his country in other efforts, as he has joined our effort in Israel. That's the one thing that I would add, because if it's not Israel, then the usual liberalism in Mr. Dershowitz surfaces, and he is part of that chorus. I hope this helps answer the question, ladies and gentlemen. It's really no more complicated than that.

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Больше года Cinders said…
I don't think people are liberal for the sake of being liberal anymore than you're conservative for the sake of being conservative.

As to why not all Jews support Israel--

“The scariest thing for non-Jewish Americans in talking about Palestinian self-determination is the fear of being or sounding anti-Semitic. The people of Israel are suffering and Jewish people have a long history of oppression. We still have some responsibility for that, but I think it’s important to draw a firm distinction between the policies of Israel as a state, and Jewish people. That’s kind of a no-brainer, but there is very strong pressure to conflate the two. I try to ask myself, whose interest does it serve to identify Israeli policy with all Jewish people?”-- Rachel Corrie

"Israel is using jets against these defenseless little backwards terrorists."-- This is a grand misnomer. Israel is fighting Hamas and Hezbollah, but they are also slaughtering Palestinian civilians. A common misconception in the United States is that Palestine (and the Middle East in general) is filled with extremists. While I do not agree with Hamas, Palestinians are suffering just as much as Israel is suffering. See my argument on the "Should US continue sending aid to Israel" pick. I know people who have been there, and seen the carnage, and have lived with Palestinians. Believe me, they give me a much different story about who the Israeli tanks are killing.

"You cannot exclude from this the element of guilt, which pervades liberalism and perpetuates it" Hm, this sounds like Catholicism! I didn't know most liberals were also Catholics!

About your "a liberal is a liberal is a liberal" argument? I've heard the same made about conservatives. The truth is, everyone believes in what they do for different reasons. I classify myself as a liberal, but I might not agree with another liberal on the same issue. We are not something that's just cookie cut out of the same dough anymore than you are. We aren't sheep. Neither are you, I hope.

"They all think we need to negotiate with terrorists, that we should have a Manhattan Project for terrorists and so forth, that we need to examine what it is we're doing to cause these people to become terrorists." This is a bold-faced lie. Terrorism should not be tolerated, I agree, I do, but the important thing that (and I cannot speak for all liberals here, only myself, because I hate generalizing) I think should happen is that we define what the hell a terrorist is because no one in America seems to understand. If you're a Muslim, you're a terrorist. If you support Palestine, you must be anti-Semitic... and a terrorist. We can't just go around bombing countries with the excuse that we're fighting "terrorism." For every ten people we kill in Iraq, maybe one is a terrorist. These aren't real statistics, but they are damn close. The thing that "liberals" want is for the US to stop fighting terrorism with more terrorism.

"the United Nations demanding that we close our secret prisons around the world... who the hell are they? A bunch of liberals at the United Nations. The human rights committee, conference, whatever they call themselves up there, and don't forget, this human rights club at the United Nations can have as one of its leaders somebody like Saddam Hussein, or a country like Iraq under Saddam Hussein." All I can say to this is WTF and hope that the kiddies don't know what it means. Honestly, the United Nations has its flaws, as does the Human Rights Committee, as demonstrated over at the Human Rights Spot here on FanPop, but that does NOT mean they don't STAND for something. I strongly beleieve in everyone's basic human rights and Guantanamo SLICES them away. And THIS is EXACTLY what I meant when I said the US is fighting terrorism with terrorism!

I'm sorry, I'm getting a little heated, I'll try and calm down. I'm assuming you didn't write this. Is this Rush Limbaugh again?

Anyways, moving on... I need to get through this.

"The only competition liberals really have with other religions, is the religion of Gaya, which is the earth, a tree, whatever. They're a little conflicted there." I don't understand what this means but I think I'm offended.

"They associate Nazism with conservatism when Nazism is one of those horrible things that you get on the left: communism, socialism, Nazism, fascism. Those are all on the left side of center, but liberals have found a way to put it on the right. " You really cannot lump Nazism and fascism in with socialism and communism. I agree that a lot of people especially today don't understand them, but apparantly that includes this author, whether it was you or someone else. Please. Link the concepts together for me and then I will argue this point because right now it just does not connect in my head. To be honest, I don't link conservatives with Nazism at all, but then again I don't link liberals with Communism so maybe I don't know enough about these things either. "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Dom Helder Camara

OK, I don't know much about the voting rights act, so I'm going to skip that for now. But can I take this time to ask what bashing liberals has to do with Palestine and Israel?

Ah, I see now. After the liberal bashing comes Deshowitz (please note I am writing this as I read your article). And Bolton. Oh Bolton is fun, isn't he? (Insert sarcasm there).

Our "effort" in Israel is aiding the world's fourth most powerful armies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Israel hasn't fallen victim to terrorism, because it has, but what you don't hear about in the US is that SO HAS PALESTINE!

Jewish does not equal Israeli! That is my final statement. And I'm going to stop now before I say something I regret. Maybe I already have. I'll reread this later when I'm calm again.
Больше года MajorDork74 said…
It all goes evevn deeper than what you're stating, and I don't know much more about it than you do. But this has been going on longer than any of our past 3 to 4 generations have been alive. Just like Dennis Miller (also a Jew) has stated. I personally do not think we'll see the end of this in our lifetime, Cniders. I don't.
Больше года Cinders said…
It is deeper. My point is that the US is exacerbating the conflict.
Больше года MajorDork74 said…
Maybe, maybe not. But it seems more complicated than what we may both be thinking. My older brother, who's the family political expert, can really tell you everything about it, at least that's what my understanding is.